Warum Icecrown auch nicht schwerer wird...

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empeha
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Post by empeha »

Ich kann nur jedem Nahe legen der sich in WoW unterfordert fühlt mit multiboxing anzufangen. Da sind zwar einige Dinge deutlich einfacher, allerdings andere wiederrum richtig fordernd.
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Ernie
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Post by Ernie »

Ich finde ja allein schon die monatlichen Gebühren fordernd genug :)
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empeha
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Post by empeha »

einmal ein wochenende pro monat nicht fort gehen und man kann sich sogar noch pizza bestellen und kommt billiger davon ;)
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Tovi
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Post by Tovi »

empeha wrote:einmal ein wochenende pro monat nicht fort gehen und man kann sich sogar noch pizza bestellen und kommt billiger davon ;)
Das mach ich schon. Wo kann ich jetzt noch einsparen? :-)
SC2 - Eve - WoW hab ich auch mal gespielt...
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Yonder
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Post by Yonder »

Geh doch einfach nochmal pro Monat nicht weg. ;)
“90% of everything is crap.” (Sturgeon's Law)
Thunder
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Post by Thunder »

Sry wenn ich mich in die Diskussion hier einmische, aber WoW Spieler sind meist auch nur Menschen, die aus vielen verschiedenen sozialen Gefügen stammen. Studenten, KFZ Mechaniker, Betriebswirte, Kaufmänner/frauen, Krankenschwestern etc pp

Jeder geht an das Spiel mit einem anderen Anspruch ran, manche überschneiden sich (Raids z.B.). Und wie Cov schon geschrieben hat, als wir damals mit WoW angefangen haben waren wir Planlos und niemand hätte erwartet das es uns knappe 5 Jahre bei der Stange hält.

Stellt sich nun die Frage wie wir zu den erfahrenen Spielern von heute wurden? Ganz klar, ein ganz großer Faktor ist die Zeit. Niemand spielt ein Spiel 5 Jahre ohne iwann zumindest eine Grundidee vom Spielprinzip zu haben. Weiterhin kam es früher deutlich öfters vor, das wir von höherlevligen Spielern Tips und Hilfe bekamen. Und heute? Die Leute fangen mit Instanzen erst mit Level 70 an, weil vorher tote Hose ist. Im schlimmsten Fall spielen Leute 70!!!! Level einen Char ohne auch nur ein Tipp zu bekommen und werden dann in der erstbesten Instanz angepöbelt, was für Kacknoobs sie doch sind. Das gibt doch direkt mal Motivation. ;-)

Und ja iwann hat jeder mal angefangen sich auch ausserhalb von WoW in Foren schlau zu machen. Aber das macht auch heute längst nicht jeder, weil eben jeder Spieler einen anderen Anspruch daran hat.

Vielleicht sollten wir die Leute einfach mal freundlich darauf hinweisen, das ein Feral Druide nicht sonderlich viel mit Willenskraft anfangen kann anstatt sie zu belächeln. ;-)

Gruß, Thunder

P.S. Haben wir nicht alle durch solche Sprüche wie: Du bist die Bombe!!! einen enormen Wissensvorsprung? In diesem Sinne: Deep Breath inc. ;-)
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Lilitu
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Post by Lilitu »

Thunder wrote:
Vielleicht sollten wir die Leute einfach mal freundlich darauf hinweisen, das ein Feral Druide nicht sonderlich viel mit Willenskraft anfangen kann anstatt sie zu belächeln. ;-)

Gruß, Thunder
Der letzte den ich (und zwar wirklich freundlich) auf sowas hingewiesen habe, hat mir direkt gesagt, dass ich: Blöder dämlicher scheiss 70er mit meinen beschissenen Epics und meinen 10.000 G mich um meinen eigenen Dreck kümmern soll. (Ich hatte noch nie 10.000 G *g*)

Da bleib ich doch lieber beim Belächeln. ;)

Natürlich hat jeder einen anderen Zugang zu WoW, keine Frage. Aber mir gehts auch gar nicht um den unterschiedlichen Zugang an sich, sondern darum, dass "jeder" (am besten gestern) alles haben will, ohne sich dafür Mühe zu geben.

Und ich bin auch ganz Deiner Meinung was die Erfahrung betrifft. Natürlich haben die Leute die viel später angefangen haben nicht mehr die Möglichkeiten zu üben die wir über die Jahre hatten. Die alte Welt ist tot und viele sehen eine Instanz nie von Innen bevor sie nicht mindestens 70 werden. Diesen Leuten werfe ich auch nicht die mangelnde Erfahrung vor . Es ist dann nur ein direkter Unterschied zu erkennen ob jemand sich bemüht oder eben überhaupt kein Interesse hat und nur ein Item nach dem anderen einsacken will.

P.S. Du weckst ganz schreckliche Erinnerungen in mir *g*
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Ernie
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Post by Ernie »

Thunder wrote:Vielleicht sollten wir die Leute einfach mal freundlich darauf hinweisen, das ein Feral Druide nicht sonderlich viel mit Willenskraft anfangen kann anstatt sie zu belächeln. ;-)
Ich halte für falsch, Leute auf irgendetwas hinzuweisen. Wenn man mich um meine Meinung bittet, dann tue ich sie gerne kund. Aber grundsätzlich maße ich es mir nicht an, jemandem vorzuschreiben, wie er zu spielen hat, welche Skills vorteilhaft wären oder welche Stats bei der Wahl der Ausrüstung zu beachten sind. Das muß jeder für sich selbst entscheiden. Mag ja sein, dass man manche Leute aufgrund der Wahl ihrer Ausrüstung "belächelt", aber das einzig Entscheidende ist doch, dass sie Spaß am Spiel haben.
Thunder
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Post by Thunder »

Der letzte den ich (und zwar wirklich freundlich) auf sowas hingewiesen habe, hat mir direkt gesagt, dass ich: Blöder dämlicher scheiss 70er mit meinen beschissenen Epics und meinen 10.000 G mich um meinen eigenen Dreck kümmern soll. (Ich hatte noch nie 10.000 G *g*)
Solche Menschen findet man immer wieder und das ist auch der Grund weswegen das "helfen" ansich zurück geht. Man meint es ja nur gut und wird dann noch dumm angemacht. Verständlich, aber auch das ist eben nicht die Regel. Ich hatte auch schon sehr positive Erfahrungen und die Leute waren dankbar weil ich sie eben nicht belächelt habe.

Ja das stimmt, Mühe geben ist für viele ein Fremdwort. Aber das war damals in UBRS auch nicht anders als heute in Naxx und Co. Man findet eben immer solche Deppen und in WoW ist mir das meist echt egal, nur diesen Menschen machen es im RL auch nicht anders.

@Ernie
Man kann solche Gespräche ganz einfach mit: "Darf ich dir einen Tipp geben?" anfangen. Somit hat der Angesprochene die Wahl zu entscheiden ob er auf deine Meinung wert legt oder eben nicht. Und solche Typen wie aus Lilitu´s Beispiel ignorieren den Satz oder schreiben direkt "nein".

Richtig Spass am Spiel, ist das was zählt...aber wer sagt denn, das er mit deinen Tipps weniger Spass hätte? ;-)
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Elbrasch
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Post by Elbrasch »

There is an agreement among bloggers, that Blizzard slacked with WotLK, shipping it only with Naxx and 3 miniraids. Ulduar should have been published with WotLK start, so better players would also have something to do.

Something never clicked for me here. Blizzard is swimming in money. 1% of their subscribers is more than the whole playerbase of smaller games. And they are unable to make a decent expansion? Remember these task are parallel, some junior developer can do the Jormungars of Dragonblight while senior developers can work on Ulduar. Creating 2x more content does not need 2x more developer resources, as you have to program the engine, desingn the spells, do basic modelling only once. A game developer have to do huge work (or pay huge licence fees) before the first monster is created. Still games are made. If a company of a small game can do all the work in the hope of having 2-300K subscribers, how could Blizzard not make more than lousy rebalancing 3 years old stuff and some 1-room raids?

Reading and thinking more and more makes me sure that Blizzard "messed up" WotLK start on purpose, (and created only the 1-room sized Coliseum in 3.2) to increase customer satisfaction and retention rate.

Since we are dissatisfied and whining, it needs explanation. I already wrote that we (players) are a minority of the subscribers, while the majority is socials who don't give a damn about dragons, they care about "friendly environment" (a place where peers accept and respect them, or at least they believe so).

Nerfing the content is necessary part of making the game social-friendly, but alone not enough. The reason for that is "socials" is not a monolithic block despite we sometimes see them as such. While they are all unskilled players compared to us, their "unskill" differs largely from the mage who does insane DPS while standing in the fire, through the one who knows his class but never reads boss tactics, down to the completely useless idiot who damage below the (also social) tank. If you nerf the game to the former, the latter will still wipe, if you nerf it to latter, the former will rolfstomp and get bored.

Also there is an anti-social result of nerfing: the game becomes soloable. People rarely group for outdoor questing. While theoretically questing in groups is faster (that's why people dualbox-level), it's diminished by costs like "other guy AFK", "he is on different point of the questline", "wait until he gets here" and "I must not hold him up by becoming AFK myself". If you solo, you do everything in your own pace. Further nerfing would allow 5-mans to be soloed or 2-3 manned, and (by diminishing the mentioned problems) it would be the preferred way to players. Raid content could be PuG-ged at any time of the day, there would be no need for guilds. So simply by nerfing you get a completely solo/PuG game where players have no reason to interact. That would be very much social-unfriendly.


The social requires group activity, to do things together with "friends". They want to experience "brotherhood" by helping and be helped by "friends", they want a "one for all, all for one" atmosphere. The too easy content automatically prefers "all for himself" thinking as no one with more than 1 brain cell would need help.

The ideal place for the social is the "social raiding guild", which:

•progress: needed for positive group-self image. Otherwise he will feel "we suck" and will cause drama against those who are responsible according to him, or hate the game as "elitist"
•friendly: allow friends to participate (= being carried)
•intimate: he must know the members, rapid invites and quits does not create such an atmosphere
•the illusion of being important: if everything is rolfstomped, he will feel that his effort is not needed. The "we almost wiped but still made it" experience is needed sometimes.
•yet the content must not be complicated, must not request reading strategies or listening to the RL for more than a minute.
As you can see, such thing can not exists as several points are mutually exclusive. A bunch of socials cannot form such guild. The only way the "social raiding guild" can exists if it has a core of good players, who read the strategy, do the harder parts (tanking, CC, main-healing, movement-leading). The social members have nothing else to do than the little job the RL broke down to them. For example Loatheb for them is "damage the monster as hard as you can and stay on the top of the yellow star". They do not know that "the yellow star" is hunting spores for them, they just see "OMG crit-crit-crit".

The progress comes from the skill progress of the core players and the gear progress of the socials. While "the strategy" is simply EJ for us, in a social raiding guild you have to improvise as most members can't do their job. For example a feral druid is not the best interrupter, but better than a social rogue. So "we have enough social priests to spam CoH, I go feral and interrupt" can make the difference between kill and wipe. Such strategical decisions are mostly responsible for progress.


This core+socials system has a trap: the core players must be prevented from forming one good raid, leaving the socials of 4-5 guilds helpless. The good news for Blizzard is that certain social aspects help this:

•epeen: the good player can be "the king" in a social raiding guild while "just another guy" or even "have the potential, but need to work a lot before being good" in a good guild
•status: if you are good player, you'll be class-leader/officer/RL/GL in no time
•independence: you don't have to wait for others for 5-mans or raid, they will adjust to you (as they need you to carry them)
•frustration-safe: no one, (including yourself) will blame you for wiping the raid. Failures can always be blamed on the socials. The only mistake you can perform is "I thought he can do that simple job"

•positive self-image: "I help these people, I'm a good person"
•never benched: obvious
So the social raiding guild is formed on its own, Blizzard only have to make sure that no negative factors destroy it. By nerfing the content, Blizzard makes sure that there is no such roadblock that forces the core players to gquit if they ever want to see more content. The main negative social factor would be unfavored comparison to peers. If you wipe on 4H while others are on Thorim, if you wear ilvl200 while others are almost full 226, you a you will seek other options. You will keep your eyes open for recruitments from guilds that allow you to escape your "loser" status.

If Blizzard would publish Ulduar with WotLK, the members of realm first guilds would have their first ilvl 226 items on the second week. The realm seconds-thirds would get siege and antechamber on farm by January. This would be a huge attraction force to the core players of social raiding guilds to either gquit or demand performance from the members. Without Ulduar there was no such thing. Everyone got their T7.5, the only difference was pace. They could say: "If I'd gquit, I'd get it faster, and would have nothing to do until Ulduar". Remember the paladin of Matticus!

The current Ulduar Hard modes were socially declassed by Coliseum. If I do firefigter, I get some lousy ilvl239. If I rolfstomp 2 Jormungars, I get ilvl245. So there is no gear reason to do hard modes.

Summary: the timeline of the content optimized for maximum "social raiding survivability":

1.new, relatively small piece of content arrives, everyone starts doing it. You are always in the top league. We were all Naxx raiders in 3.0. We were all Ulduar raiders in 3.1 (some in FL+0, some in Algalon, but still everyone raided Ulduar). We are all Coliseum raiders now.

2.The content is slowly nerfed, to make sure that everyone has progression. Some finally get Firefighter after the nerfs, some finally get a keeper down, but everyone progresses.

3.There are badges flowing to let people getting gear without any performance.

4.Just before the end of the cycle everyone are sporting in Tx.5, so designers can balance the next raid to that gear

Blizzard put in one more little trick: 10/25. While the official reason was to make it possible to smaller guilds to progress, it's obviously fake, as lower rewards prove it. The real reason is to allow the core players of the social raiding guild to do the "same" achievements as the top guilds. They can honestly believe that "I can do the same hard modes, I just don't have enough raiders to do it in 25" (meaning: my self esteem is high, I blame my inability to do hard 25 modes on others).


Recht schwarzweiß gezeichnet in seinen einteilungen der Gruppen, aber das grundprinzip klingt einleuchtend.
Richard, Chief Warlock of the Brothers of Darkness, Lord of the thirteen Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, Master of Dance and the mayor of a little village up the coast.
www.lfgcomic.com
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Elbrasch
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Post by Elbrasch »

Evtl etwas zum nachdenken, es ist immer so leise nach unsren Wipes...


Brick wall
Pugnacious priest wrote: "Apparently to be a hardcore raider I am supposed to enjoy hitting said head against the brick wall. I disagree. I think there is a massive difference between productive attempts and attempts for the sake of it, and I think too many attempts are Die. Run Back, Die, Run back ect I want more dialog with the raiders as to why we died. What we did right, what we did wrong but too much dialog increases the chances of another dc, another afk, another slow person running back after a buff. Maybe we just aren’t hardcore enough."



Many intelligent, educated raider asked it before. I also tried to discuss what went wrong in my previous guilds, turning me into a "disturber of the peace" and a "complete jerk", despite I tried to analyze the situation as constructively as I could. Why can't we just talk about the mistakes?

I hated the "attempts of the shake of it", trying one more time although I'm 100% sure that we'll wipe again and I can't do anything about it. I can't interrupt for the rogue, I can't kite for the hunter and I know that they will mess it up again. Why bother?

The answer for both lies in being social. Remember, the goal of the social person is to be loved, accepted and respected, not killing the boss or win or achieve anything. All their actions in the real or any simulated world are motivated by their ape-minded need of the above.

Be also noted that "being social" is not yes or no. It's a scale between the "freindly heplfull guld LF peeps /w for inv :DDD" class beings and the true goblin (which I'm not but trying to be). While raiders are way above the average, they still have enough social tendencies to make the most obvious solution (analyze, discuss, point out errors, fix them) impossible.

Among true goblins if someone says "you're doing it wrong" and you find it true you'd say "thanks for you help", because that what he done, helped you fix your problem. For a social person on the other hand any kind of criticism means the very opposite of the social goal. If you say "you missed an interrupt", he doesn't hear that. He couldn't care less about "interrupt". He hears "I'm not amused by you", "You are not good enough", "I don't respect you". He won't even think of interrupting. All he will think about is "how to defend my reputation, my self-esteem against this attack?".

He will lie. He will claim it was lag. He will claim that someone else missed up. He will try to derail the conversation by ad hominem attacking you "you just say that because I outdamaged you". He will make it impossible to discuss the "interrupt thing", because it is dangerous for his "esteem", the magical quantity he wants to keep high because he believes it will make other people love, accept and respect him.

So talking openly about the problem causes nothing but drama. What can you do? Surprisingly: bang your head at the wall by quickly trying again. How would this conspiciously pointless thing work? If the person is 100% social, it does not work, however we can assume that in a raiding guild that killed anything above a plainstrider this is not the case. Since he was not called out on his fault, his "esteem-defending" mechanisms are not activated. He has a brain and he is able to use it if his ape-subroutines are inactive. There is a chance in every try that he realize his mistake. Since he is afraid that his error will be revailed he will try harder. If he cannot fix it, his failure will stress him stronger than it annoys you. So if he cannot fix his mistake, he will soon be so frustrated that he gives up and either drop attendance or leave the guild, solving the problem. So in one sentence: "the point of banging your head against the wall is that your head is harder than the error-makers, so his will crack first. You just have to hold out until it happens".

Since social thoughts are ape-subroutines, they are all vulnerable to ape-solutions. If the guild leader or an officer calls out the mistake, our little ape feels he was confronted by the alpha-ape, and should surrender (or the alpha ape attacks him). So he will have no other option than fixing his mistake. That's why highly disciplined guilds are so successful. However it has a trap. If the officer called out the wrong person, exactly due to discipline, the blamed person will apologize for the mistake he have not done and the mistake will obviously not be fixed. Also if the officer made the error, he will blame others and no one will disagree, quickly demotivating the raid. So the discipline only works if the officers are highly professional. If the officers are no better than the others, the whole thing goes down, that's why highly disciplined guilds are so rare.

Failbot is a wonderful thing because it calls out people on their mistake and it's not a person itself. Since claiming "failbot just said that because he just an asshole and hates me" is pointless, he has no means to defend his esteem, so he is forced to fix the mistake.

So in general you have one thing left: banging 25 heads into the wall and pray every time that the head of the failer will crack before yours. In the meantime you can wish that there would be no social thinking and you could solve the same problem in 10 seconds instead of 10 tries: "X, you missed the interrupt", "Oops, yes, I was too busy DPS-ing and forgot that that's my job, thanks for reminding".

BTW there is a reason that on the top of any activity you find lot of "elitist jerks". What the socials consider "jerk" behavior is exactly the most effective helping behavior: pointing out mistakes and giving good advice how to fix them. Other goblins take this as a help. Socials take it as "that jerk asshole attacked me, made fun of me, humiliated me".

Now I could write a paragraph how much I hate the socials for forcing me into sub-optimal solutions like banging my head into the wall, but there would be no point, right?

Note: please don't comment "in my guild we always discuss mistakes constructively". Congratulations to have enough people who are not so social to consider a constructive comment a hateful attack. 99% of the guilds does not have this luxury.


Evtl etwas zum nachdenken, es ist immer so leise nach unsren Wipes...
Richard, Chief Warlock of the Brothers of Darkness, Lord of the thirteen Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, Master of Dance and the mayor of a little village up the coast.
www.lfgcomic.com
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Cov
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Post by Cov »

Man muss ja nicht alles im vent verhandeln. prinzipiell aber richtig und nix neues. mich nerven wipes des wipen-willens ziemlich. noch mehr nervt es mich, wenn ich gar nicht genau weiss, warum es ein wipe gab.
das scheint oft genug den 9 oder 24 anderen aehnlich zu gehen. sonst wuerde sie ja (hoffentlich) was sagen.

und in zeiten von wol/wws ist ein "hab ich doch gemacht" obwohl das log was anderes sagt uebrigens unsinn.
was bleibt: aufhoeren sich zu rechtfertigen wenn was schiefgegangen ist.
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fanto
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Post by fanto »

Wichtig dafür ist, dass jeder seinen Fehler erkennt ... und ihn auch zugibt. Dies setzt wiederum vorraus, dass jeder auch weiss was er zu tun hat. ;)
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